Episode 3: Taste, texture, and price: The secret to success in plant-based proteins

In the third episode of Women Transforming Food, Amie and Angeline are joined by Diem Fuggersberger, CEO of Coco & Lucas to chat about the challenges and successes that have come with her journey in the plant-based meal space. 

Transcript

Intro:

Welcome to Women Transforming Food, a monthly podcast brought to you by G100 and Inside FMCG, exploring the stories of inspiring women shaping the food industry. Today, I'm joined by my co -host, G100 Mission Millions, Angeline Acharya, Asia Pacific Chair of the Food Systems Innovation and Resilience Wing, and Diem Fuggersberger, CEO of Cocos and Lucas Kitchen. Welcome team.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Thank you, Amie, for having me on today. Thank you, Angeline.

Angeline Achariya:

Hi Amie, hey you, great to be back for number 3.

Amie Larter:

I know number three, we're pretty excited. Diem founded Burger Ingredients and successfully introduced Coco Lucas Kitchen, ready meals brand that has become a household name, so exciting. Your initial products were for children, but you've since expanded to cater for families. One of the most impressive aspects of your journey, as you've shared in interviews, I know with Inside FMCG and a range of different publications, is your unwavering passion for food and your incredible perseverance. 

Despite the challenges you've faced as a founder, your dedication has driven Coco Lucas Kitchen's success. Not just that, but you've really transformed the plant -based food industry through the earth range. When you started Coco and Lucas, the market was, I think we'd say virtually non -existent. You can detail that for us. So you've essentially had to build both a business and a category simultaneously.

Diem, could you share why you decided to enter the space and what was the journey like?

Diem Fuggersberger:

To be totally honest, I entered this space by accident because at that time, you know, no, background, my family's a butchers. And at that time, I went to Melbourne to do a four -day course, how I could sell meat.

And in that time that I learned about Aus meat and how to have my factory ready to export meat, I found out something that I didn't realise. A cow eats eight tons of grains a year. And I thought that wasn't sustainable. Because the way I feel is we shouldn't be feeding eight tons of grains to a cow because of the poverty and I live in an unprivileged country, so I just feel all this is all wrong. So, when I came back from my meat course, I actually had something different. I didn't want to actually sell meat anymore and considering that my family have been butchers over the last 30 years.

I'm a butcher's daughter. And then a thing came up when we were presenting our range extension to Woolworths. Woolworths asked me if I wanted to do plant -based alternative plant -based protein besides my Junior Foodies. And that's how it started. So, the journey was - I have three and a half months to launch the five ready meals.

And the challenge at the time was at that time it was quite hard to get the alternative plant -based proteins readily in Australia because it wasn't available. So, I had to search for USA, Europe and Asia for the ingredients. And then once I got all the ingredients, we have to work really hard in our R &D like every single day because we didn't know how to make plant -based. But as an entrepreneur, I didn't have the luxury to say, I think about it. I said yes, and then I find out how to do it. So, we had about seven people within our R &D team to work on how to make the plant -based meals, the plant -based proteins in -house. 

So, we were doing trials, R &D. We worked with different companies to source ingredients to help us and use different technologies to help us to get the best texture, taste, and colour. And on top of that, we had to work with machinery and equipment how to make shapes of things like a nugget and strips of chicken and how to make the mince. So, I had the journey of not knowing how to make plant -based, sourcing raw materials, and then also working with equipment companies. And one of my second range that I did, you can't believe this, it was COVID. And I had ordered over nearly a million dollars’ worth of equipment from Taiwan.

It didn't come in time. So therefore, we had to launch five entertainment and snack range. And we had to roll everything by hand. So, I'll give you an example where we had to make 24 ,000 trays of spring rolls. And there's nine spring rolls in each tray.

So, we're talking about 250 ,000 spring rolls rolled by hand, we had to do the money bags by hand. We did get the machine in time to make the nuggets and the mince. But the challenge was, you know, I had an ace team and we all worked day and night. And you have to imagine all the overtime I have to pay to get the products into the shelf.

Angeline Achariya:

Wow, that's quite a journey, Diem. And so fantastic to hear going from a butcher's daughter to doing plant -based with the Earth range. And thank you for stepping out all of those challenges. We know that the demand for protein is going to grow, and the plant -based industry has made significant progress. The category also is, of course, new.

I love how you said how Woolworths kind of asked you about, you know, stepping into this range. You know, you've seen probably many brands come and go. Why do you think the earth range continues to be around? What, what do you think resonates about that product and that brand?

Diem Fuggersberger:

I would say in the beginning I have made a lot of mistakes as well because I launched three ranges and every year I launched five products. And then I launched products, so I'll give you an example. I launched honey chicken tenders where I also had a lot of backlash because people don't want to associate vegan or vegetarian with honey. So, I think I don't want to shift the blame to the retailers because they were very kind and patient and gave me three and a half years to launch my product. I think the problem is the product was not up to scratch. There were too many on offer and it wasn't meeting the consumers' expectations in terms of taste and price. So, what I've done is I streamlined my range.

Angeline Achariya:

I think the thing that you touched on is taste and texture and price are some of the key things that obviously resonates, whether you're plant -based or you're not right at the end of the day.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Yeah.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Amie Larter:

Okay and so what do you think are some of the biggest hurdles you've faced in this space?

Diem Fuggersberger:

Some of the biggest hurdles I faced is, you know, launching the products in the wrong category, for example, when I launched my sausages and my meat, mince, I launched it in the frozen category. That's one of some of mistakes that I've done. And when a consumer is buying a sausage or a mince, it should be in the chilled area.

And secondly, because I'm self -funded, I fund everything myself. So therefore, I don't have the luxury to buy all the equipment.

And thirdly, when you launch a product, I sort of like make a lot of awareness through my organic LinkedIn, but we didn't have the funding to do like a lot of marketing. 

Amie Larter:

Marketing.

Diem Fuggersberger:

That is because the marketing can cost you anywhere between $250,000 to half a million to a million.

Amie Larter:

How long's a piece of string? Yeah.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Yeah, so you know, I don't have the luxury to have all those things, trying to spend money on research and development whilst my biggest spending and my KPEX. I must admit, if I had more funding for the marketing, I would have done much better. Like I knew that I ticked the price point and there wasn't, at the time it was early on. So, I think we try our very best and there wasn't a day in our R &D room where we didn't develop or have this version 1, version 2, version 3. 

We are constantly making the product better, but by the time I make the product as its best, which took another like three and a half years, then the market, the consumer was not responding. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Angeline Achariya:

And why do you think that was Diem? What had happened in the market in that three years?

Diem Fuggersberger:

I think there was far too many products launched and I think the consumer were getting confused and I really do think that it's not going to work if we just try to replace plant -based with a burger, a mince or a meatball. People just want really honest plant -based food that are good, full of nutrients and good for you. 

And I think we really need to, from the feedback that I get from my client, which is the retailers and the consumer, and the community is people just want delicious food that tastes yummy, delicious, clean labelling, going back to basic, but that has plant -based protein. That's what I'm hearing from all the feedback I'm getting.

Amie Larter:

Okay, so moving away, are you saying moving away from, you know, nuggets, etc? Is that what? 

Diem Fuggersberger:

That's right. That's right.

Okay, so it's not so much creating something that was originally a meat or trying to imitate that form. It's just genuinely going back to the core of what it is and that is just delicious plant -based food.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

That's correct, that's correct. That's full of nutrients and competitive price. Because I don't think people are wanting us to replace anything.

Amie Larter:

Excellent.

Angeline Achariya:

Okay. So, I think unpacking all of that, as we look at, you know, some of the work that you're doing with burger ingredients, you've partnered with competitors and retailers. talked a lot about your partnership with Woolies there. You've also been developing a range of private label plant -based products. Why do you know, why do you think these companies are seeking your expertise, Diem? What do you think, you know, what sort of sets you apart in you to others out there in this space?

Diem Fuggersberger:

I believe that in the last 30 years I've got a very good reputation and people know that I only offer good quality. They know that they can trust me.

They know that I'm loyal and they know that I'm always going to actually work for them exclusively. So, if a client came to me, I would not just give them something off the shelf. I will listen to them and ask them what their specific needs are, and then they know that I've got a very extensive quality and assurance control system. And I actually deliver on time and in full.

Because people at the end of the day, they need to work with someone who has got trust and loyalty. And I've actually proven myself that I have track record of launching nearly 60 products in now nearly two and a half thousand stores. And I actually never do-there's never two projects the same. Does that make sense? Like every client is a special client to me and I work with them uniquely. And they know that I give them the best pricing and I honour my word.

Angeline Achariya:

Wow. Such incredible credentials there. And I certainly know being in industry, the reputation and the credibility you hold, so all of that a hundred percent. And no wonder I think they're coming to you, but I think also it's because you've created delicious products that consumers want at the end of the day, right? You've proved that again and again.

Diem Fuggersberger Larter:

Yes, and sorry. 

Amie Larter:

Well, no, no, go for it.

Diem Fuggersberger:

I just want to also add to it is that the reason why the ingredients is doing third party is firstly, plant -based, it's a small industry, it's a small sector, it's new, and I rather work collaboratively with other people so we can have this category stronger.

Secondly, I'm agile. I change to the market's response. And thirdly, I think I work very collaboratively with the retailers. I ask them what they want. And also, they have all the data to help me what's working. And fourthly, I believe that, you know, it's really hard to have a factory that only does one brand. 

It's not big enough. So that's why I'm open to working with very prestigious established brands to develop for them so I can fill up my factory. Right? And what I make for myself is not what I'm making for them. It's just that we have worked together as a team to say, okay, Jimmy, if you're going to sell a butter chicken, I'm going to sell a red curry.

So, everyone for me, the way I look at it is it has to be a win -win for everyone. And I think, you know, like I said, in three years, I launched 22 products. I don't know whether at the time when I'm launching all these products, am I not thinking or was it an ego thing? But I think I have a depth to streamline my best sellers.

And I think that's why it's worked for me. And I just concentrate on the best sellers. Because when I'm making my best sellers, I produce that product to death so I can bring the price down because plant based is not meant to be more expensive than meat. I need to put myself in the consumer's shoes to say, you know, this is affordable, it's yummy, it's something you can have every day. It's not something unique that is part of your everyday meal. And I think that's probably why it's worked for me.

Amie Larter:

Excellent so looking ahead how do you envision the plant -based market evolving and I think if we can also look at what emerging trends or technologies excite you the most in this space?

Diem Fuggersberger:

Okay, so the first thing I'm going to talk about is technologies. And to be honest, I've said to Angeline earlier that technology scares me a lot. 

Angeline Achariya:

Me too, me too sometimes.

Diem Fuggersberger:

You can ask me to learn a business, open a business or innovation, but when it comes to technology, I'm a bit clueless, but I'm very particularly interested in AI.

Because I think AI can summarise things for us maybe a thousandfold. So, if I'm looking at the universities, the research houses and organisations, there are thousands and thousands of reports and information and data. So, if AI can help us crosscheck to see what plans out there, that can work really well with our human culinary skills and we'll combine the two that will help us make better, healthier, yummy plant -based food combining with our know -how, culinary technologies and research and development within our land. 

So, I think AI can do that much faster than the human. So that's what I'm interested in, technology in the food industry. What I see revolving in forward is I think, you know, whatever we make, just- I believe that has worked for me is keep it simple and as I said earlier before just go back to the basic and I think what I've done also is beside catering for the vegan market I have actually also looked into vegetarian, and we have successfully developed eight schools in the vegetarian area and is doing so well. Like this, I came back from holiday this morning, and we just sold two truckloads. You know, like first thing I came back, I see loading two truckloads of the vegetarian range. 

So that to me is telling me that it's working. So, actually focus my development into that area. So always be mindful of people spending because of the cost of living, with the interest rate.

You know, whatever you would do, it has to come from our heart. If it's not coming from our heart, we're not going to produce good products. So, I just want to focus on price, cost of living, convenience, making good vegetarian food, slash vegan, and make sure our label is clean labelling. Because I do believe that consumer is not interested in this long ingredients’ decoration list. They don't like processed food.

And we have to be really mindful of concentrating on people's health. That's what I think the new emerging trend is. And probably what I'm saying here is nothing new, but reality. That's the reality of what every consumer wants.

Angeline Achariya:

And Diem, I have to ask this question. Seeing those two truckloads of vegetarian food go out, do you think the consumer is actively reducing their meat? And is that from a health perspective or is it also around value and cost?

Diem Fuggersberger:

I think it's both. Because I think all humans these days are learning slowly. Some are learning faster. instead of having seven days meat, why don't we have two? I'm not really into anything extreme. Like me, myself, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian seven days a week.

So, I think as a responsible entrepreneur, I want to actually send out the message that instead of having seven days meat, have two days. Two days vegetarian. You're doing a favour to the environment. We're doing a favour to our health. And also, it's our responsibility you know, we're talking about like, climate change, animal welfare and our health. And it's always in my heart to always make food that's delicious. At the end of the day, you can talk about the technology, the innovation, the R &D, or what's good for the earth, what's good for people want yummy, delicious food, right? Angeline, Amie, you can't force yourself to eat something that doesn't taste delicious.

Amie Larter:

No thank  you.

Angeline Achariya:

Never, never, never, never.

Diem Fuggersberger:

And as a founder and a creator, I want to make food that is, you know, reasonable price. You can't charge $8 for a burger. You have to charge $2 or less. So, I just, always conscious of people's time, convenience, price and taste and health.

Amie Larter:

And what has the consumer feedback been for the brands? Because we've focused very much on your relationship potentially with suppliers or retailers, but keen to understand what feedback you hear from consumers?

Diem Fuggersberger:

My consumer is always telling me, please, you can, we don't want you to imitate chicken or beef. We don't want any bleeding burger.

That's what they tell me they write me back. Sometimes they write me very harsh feedback. you know, Amie and Angeline, I don't take it as a negative thing because I believe that they care enough to spend five minutes, write me an email, telling me off, giving me feedback how to make food for them and I take it very wholeheartedly because I thank them.

And I take on the advice because you have to always respond to, of course, your client, but your consumer, the one that pays the retailers. They don't pay me. They pay the retailers. But I need to listen to them. Even if they pay me $5, I still have to respond to them. And they're me they just want everything natural. Natural, healthy, affordable. Make it yummy for me.

I don't want all these imitation meats. And I think that they really had their final say and I'm responding to the market straight away.

Angeline Achariya:

Well, you couldn't get any better summary than that. So that's fantastic. I'm going to shift a little bit of gear. and know, you and I've known each other for a while now and, know, as a female founder in a traditionally male dominated industry, which is our food industry, I'm sure you have faced some unique challenges. How have you overcome some of these obstacles and become a role model? And I'm going to say this out here - for culturally diverse women in the food industry. That's how I see you as a fellow culturally diverse woman. How have you overcome some of these obstacles? What were those unique challenges that you have come through?

Diem Fuggersberger:

I will say in the beginning, as a refugee, an Asian person and a woman, it was a bit hard in the beginning. So, don't laugh, but I have to always pretend to be Verna's assistant. Just to get in the door, but I think after a while, I think people respect that I'm actually the founder behind the brands.

After I was established in the industry, I don't differentiate whether I'm working with a woman or a man, for me. The way I look at it is I've got a job to do and I come in and do it properly. So, I think what I've done is I've got a very good intuition and I surround myself with good people that work well with me. So, for example, I'm not academic, but I have an intuition of choosing and recruiting very smart, specialised people. And I believe that in the last 15 years, I have always, you know, opened my doors to people whose changing careers or wanting to start up. I always listen to them.

I always give them good advice and I talk to them, and I never ask for any benefits back. So, I've always been, I think to earn respect, you have to give it first. And I've always been giving that way to the community, whether it's, I'm very open to talking to people. And I think people - I want to repeat again, trust, trust me. And they find that I'm very easy to work with. So, when people work with you and you make things easy for them, they want to work with you. So, I think I believe that I earn my respect that way. And people know that I've always put in 110 % when it comes to quality and uniqueness. 

I've always make sure that my work has a point of difference. So, I think when people say that you are genuine, you will earn respect.

Angeline Achariya:

Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, clearly a role model, I think for women and not just women, but men and women, all genders across the food industry there. Thank you, Diem.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Yeah. Thank you.

Amie Larter:

Yes, such an inspiring story. Thank you for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure to learn about your philosophy and I love that you lean so much into trust because I think trust goes from, you know, from a consumer level. You want to trust the brand that you're buying, then the retailer wants that trust from a consumer and your lens. So, I think it's amazing. Congratulations.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Thank you, Amie. Thank you. Because you know, like with anything, when you have a business idea, it's just not enough because it's the whole trust. And I'm talking about trust. I'm not just talking about my customers, but I'm talking about my staff, my stakeholders, the people I collaborate with, the suppliers. Because if the suppliers don't trust you, they're not going to bring in a million-dollar product for you.

Does that make sense? And if my client doesn’t trust me, they wouldn't give me the shelf space to sell in a thousand stores because they need to trust me that I can deliver. They need to trust me that I can fund it. They need to trust me that I have the products on time. They need to trust me if the product has got the right integrity as what I presented to them in the beginning. So, the word trust might mean trust, but it's actually a lot of work that I have to work behind the scenes to get the trust and the loyalty.

Amie Larter:

It's amazing.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Thank you.

Angeline Achariya:

I don't think I have anything more left to say after that. It's a great inspiring story. I think, know, it's, it's, it's an easy word, but it's such a hard thing to do and to maintain and to build over time and you know Diem, you've certainly proven that over and over again in your career and your business and your brands.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Yes, that's right. Like I try my very best to work behind the scenes. But then, you know, that's what I do because that's all I know. If you ask me to do your job, I wouldn't even know how to do it. And I said to Angeline this morning, I'm freaking out because I don't even know how to use a headphone. I'm so sorry. 

Amie Larter:

You know what though, the one thing I do know is that you'd likely work it out and you'd start with how can I earn trust? And that's probably the perfect place to start. thank you. Thank you for a very inspiring conversation. And Angeline, it's been a pleasure as always. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, subscribe to Women Transforming Food for more inspiring stories wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again, ladies.

Angeline Achariya:

Thank you.

Diem Fuggersberger:

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.